Monday, April 20, 2009

Omeagle : Guns, guns, guns!

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Stranger: Guns are peace keepers and Obama is a moron.
Niteowl what if obama had a gun?
Stranger: He kinda does, being the commander in chief and all.
Niteowl guns are peace keepers only insofar as the people who are wielding themare not complete idiots.
Niteowl most people ARE complete idiots, ergo, guns are not peacekeepers
Niteowl OTOH, most gun afficionados i know are pretty knowlegeable and level headed, i have no issue with them having guns
Stranger: well, the 52% of the americans that voted for Obama are complete idiots. So, I guess that's most.
Stranger: : )
Niteowl the problem is, they think all the people who buy guys are just like them
Niteowl reasonable and responsible
Niteowl which isn't the case
Stranger: But how do you sort them out? We have a way to keep the criminals from legally purchasing a gun.
Niteowl like, you go to the range and practice really well thought out gun safety, dud,e have as many guns as you want
Niteowl how do you sort out the idiots? no clue. target scores? ability to recite the Constitution?
Stranger: But most people are crappy drivers too, but we still give them a 2000+ lb weapon that kills more people than guns.
Stranger: I like the constitution part.
Niteowl it's far harder to get a car and go on a fucking crazy rampage of death
Stranger: actually, I think it's easier. You don't need a background check to buy a car.
Niteowl but saying there are stupid laws (stupid people can drive cars) doesn't mean there shouldnt be some way of sorting out stupid people from having guns
Niteowl it's like
Niteowl OH CRAP, this is total shit, lets just add to it
Stranger: But if you're not a criminal before you buy a gun, you likely won't be a criminal AFTER. Since you have to be 18 in most states, 21 in some. If you don't have a record by then, you probably won't.
Niteowl criminal doesn't mean you won't shoot your wife in a jealous rage, or that you're not an utter dillhole who doesn't keep his weapon locked up and ends up with a dead kid
Stranger: True, but a true jealous rage doesn't need a gun. Rope, twine, bare hands around the neck, baseball bats, all do the same.
Niteowl you can't twine your wife and three kids in any respectable amount of time
Niteowl lethality
Niteowl is the problem
Niteowl how about we have annual test for gun competence?
Stranger: More kids are killed by swimming pools every year than guns. So while tragic, it's really rare, and I'm not sure that changing the intent of the constitution is worth it?
Stranger: How would you test that?
Niteowl tons and tons of kids go swimming
Niteowl it's a ratio thing
Niteowl people get mad and go in jealous rages and get angry at their neighbours and lose their jobs
Stranger: There are 300 million guns legally in the US. That's a pretty big ratio of potential problems.
Niteowl they shouldn't haev a lethal weapon on hand to vent
Stranger: but how do you sort those out?
Niteowl do 300 million children play with guns and take classes in guns?
Niteowl the ratio analogy isn't apt
Niteowl i'm not sure how you sort those out
Niteowl maybe be like the swiss
Niteowl mandatory 1 year service, and everyone gets a rifle
Stranger: Nope, because almost all gun owners tell their kids not to play with them and instruct them on proper procedure if they find one.
Stranger: Those swiss are good shots, too.
Niteowl i dunno about the 'almost all gun owners' bit
Niteowl because most ppl are idiots
Niteowl i think we both agree on the problem, and i think we both agree there isn't a clear solution
Niteowl idiots shouldn't have guns
Niteowl but idiots not having guns shouldnt' keep responsible gun owners from having them
Stranger: But not all people have guns. I would venture a pretty safe guess that the ratio of idiots with guns are less than the ratio of idiots without (legal) guns.
Niteowl BUT, just because there are stupid laws (vis a vis cars) that shouldnt' be a reason for givving up on a gun solution
Niteowl i'm not going to agree on that point unless there are hard numbers
Stranger: Cars aren't a right in the Constitution, Guns are. That's the hard part.
Niteowl just because it was in the constitution, doesn't make it Word From God. the founding fathers are fallible
Niteowl maybe the founding fathers didn't think there'd be this many idiots
Stranger: Maybe not, but they left an ammendment process for us to follow. Should we have an "idiot" test on the first? I'm guessing most would fail. At least if I read the Opinion pages everyday. : )
Stranger: It doesn't make it the Word of God, but it does make it the law until it's changed.
Niteowl exactly, which means, just because it's in the constitution, doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed
Stranger: I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm just saying it hasn't been changed with regards to guns. So until it is, how do we deal with it?
Niteowl not sure
Niteowl make guns really fucking expensive?
Niteowl then that'd disciminate against a regular working guy
Stranger: Some are expensive (the really fun ones)
Stranger: The basic ones aren't "as lethal", and they are cheaper. Kinda have that already.
Niteowl yeah, the fun ones, how often are they used in every day murders? i'd wager almost never
Niteowl dead is dead
Stranger: Criminals are basically cowards. That's why they do what they do. If people started shooting back, I think less criminals would be inclined to shoot in the first place.
Stranger: You are correct. The expensive ones (assualt weapons) are used in less that 1% of all crimes.
Niteowl like, my impression, the people who buy those really rad military style weapons. they never use them for ill.
Niteowl saturday night special? SUPER DEADLY
Stranger: military style weapons are just fun to have, nobody uses them for ill.
Stranger: Saturday night specials are just a code word for "Small and Cheap". .38 caliber, usually.
Stranger: But that's all poor people can afford.
Stranger: That's the hard part.

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